Chitchat thread
Anon posting is turned on. This thread is for the stuff that is not a rumor.
posted by RumorQueen at 4/18/2006 06:43:00 AM
Tuesday, April 18, 2006
Previous Posts
- PSA
- From CCAI
- From another agency
- Some answers
- June 6th rumor
- CCAA site, CCAA delegation
- My Crystal Ball
- Huh?
- Rumors. Finally.
- Some responses and observations
131 Comments:
ok, any thoughts on when the next batch of referrals might arrive? There have been conflicting reports regarding whether the director needs to personally sign all referrals. If he indeed does need to, we know he will be in Canada until at least 4/22. It's been reported that the next leg of his tour doesn't start until 5/10. So, I'm thinking he will be back in China 4/24 or 4/25 and sign the referrals then. So, they could arrive next Thurs/Fri 4/27 or 4/28. Other thoughts or speculation?
Is anyone else worried about the program turning into an only special needs program?
How do you feel about adopting a special needs child?
To me, adopting a child in an orphanage was just about as special needs as our family could handle.
I'm not sure I could take on a child with other issues. Mild or not.
Just being honest.
Just wondering if others would admit to this?
171H & fingerprints: To gain support for increasing the effective period/life of the 171-H and fingerprints, I would encourage folks to write INDIVIDUAL letters to Congress. I know that that may be a hardship for some, but I know that these letters carry more weight. I can't claim to know how each office handles their mail, but I am a policy advisor in a large federal agency that solicits public comments and I see how letters are handled in my office and in congressional offices.
We'll consider special needs, but this is very much a family by family choice, obviously.
We have no other children (waiting for our first) and while our resources are not great (relatively) they would be enough that we could care for a special needs child.
Plus, we have been thinking about a second, and have (at this early stage) thought we probably would go the special needs route there anyway.
But this is such a personal decision, I know it applies to us, and us only.
I do think that CCAA is planning this entire change in a precise way.
I think we will see mostly waiting Child adoptions in the future. To me this is a great step for CCAA.
The majority of those adopting have medical coverage and can assist children with special health concerns much better than the care they will receive in a SWI.
We know that most adoptive parents within China will choose NSN children.
What better way to encourage people to adopt a waiting child than to promote it with a better system than that of NSN.
Also maybe it is time to eliminate those who enter this program on a whim due to the short wait times. Now the times have lengthened and this takes much more dedication and perseverance.
Although I am stuck in the wait and my nerves are shot just like most others, I do think that China is finally thinking on behalf of the future of their girls. This has to be a step in the right direction!
GW sent an email last week saying referrals would be sent at the end of this week. And I've heard that the Director while at a speaking engagement last week indicated he was flying back to China to sign off on this month's referrals.
According to our large agency, the CCAA has indicated to expect referrals at the end of the month to the first week of May.
anon 9:12 - good advice. Maybe someone could still outline the key components so that our messages are clear in their intent. I have never sent a letter to my congressman and it would be helpful to have an outline to ensure I am saying everything that needs to be said. Any takers?
Re: turning the international adoption program into an only special needs program -- while this would be beneficial for domestic adoption in China for NSN (which is good for those adopted there), I am concerned that there might not be nearly enough domestic adoptions to keep up with the rate of abandoned, healthy girls. Is it possible that they realize this, and are preparing to raise more abandoned girls in orphanages, so that they will be available to marry in the future? In other words, is the increasing problem of the imbalance of boys to girls affecting how the CCAA views international adoption? What may be good for the country (keeping more girls there), does not seem to be best for a girl who would be raised without a family, so that she is "available for marriage" in 20 years. I have not read such a suggestion anywhere, but it seems to be the "elephant in the middle of the room." Clearly there is more and more focus on the Gender Imbalance, and what can be done to avert the coming crisis it will surely bring. Please tell me that this could not be happening, and that my fears are unfounded. I desire to be sensitive to the benefits of children having the opportunity to live in their homeland, but I believe so strongly that every child deserves a family. Any thoughts?
anon 9:09 -- yes i am worried, really worried. it does seem that china is heavily promoting the WC/ SN route while strongly discouraging the NSN route by, well, referring 5 days of LIDs and acting like its a normal course of events. NSN adoptions seem to be on their last breaths in china, and boy they are making it easier and easier to adopt SN. seems a little obvious to me
IF the program were changing from a regular IA adoption program ( which most of us signed on for) to a SN program, wouldn't it be nice if they told us that?
9:49 How does a country correct a gender imbalance and still fullfill the needs of each person?
I think China will address the gender imbalance just as they did the population control issue.
They will set in place a strategy to make sure they will have enough healthy females to allow for future brides and hopefully avoid crimes against women if so little are available.
It is sad when we look at the individual aspects of this situation, but I do feel China is looking more at the security of their future as a nation.
I think it is almost impossible for us to understand a thinking which comes from a country in which is so different than ours.
10:02 from 9:49 - I agree that, as an American who has such focus on individual freedom, I differ so much with their way of thinking. I also agree that decisions will be made with an eye on the stability of the country. But all I can think of is babies, who grow up to be young girls, then women, who are abandoned because of how one law interacts with ancient traditions, then trapped without family to avert a consequence of that law. In the end, the girls will pay. I'm sad.
Your all saying what I've been thinking all along.
All of the families we started this out with have turned to SN adoptions, and will be traveling shortly. We can't afford to change at this point, nor do we feel emotionally prepared to handle it. Maybe in the future.
I'm all for SN adoptions, and for domestic adoptions in China, but I have the same fears as anon 9:49 has voiced. I think that could be right on target......keeping the healthy girls in the country. Which would be fine, if they are treated as human beings, with choices and rights in their futures.....
I'm all for SN adoptions too but in the UK we have no official way to do it. All we can do is mention in our letter of application that we are open to a SN referral. That's it. So SN only would effectively scupper UK adoptions or, at the very best, make it even more ridiculously complicated and long-winded than it already is. But if that's how it goes, and all NSN children are finding good homes in China without needing to look overseas then yes, that would be a wonderful situation. Can it REALLY happen so fast though?
Yeah, it's great their emphasizing SN, I don't think anyone would argue the importance of streamlining the process. HOWEVER, if their intent was to reform their program to eliminate or drastically reduce NSN adoptions, it would have been appreciated had this information been relayed instead of allowing us to languish under false hopes and knowledge?
After months and months of waiting only to be crushed at the end of each month, I'm going to be a bit selfish here, I want my daughter.
"Is it possible that they realize this, and are preparing to raise more abandoned girls in orphanages, so that they will be available to marry in the future?"
Very interesting Anon 9:49.
I think that would be too expensive for them in the long run though. It would be better if they would offer a financial bonus to rural families that keep and raise a girl while still following the one child policy. I think I read or saw something that eluded to this program of incentive already. Was it the 60 minutes program?
Anyway, I think anything is a possiblity but I just don't see the CCAA as being all that calculating or for lack of a better word, devious.
I see people saying things about the CCAA purposely legnthening the wait time, or improving the SN process as if it was a sneaky manuever to slowly get rid of the NSN route etc. I think maybe we're being a bit paranoid. Or maybe I'm just hanging on to my "it's all rainbows and roses" vision of China's "humanitarian" adoption program.
Of course we wouldn't have all these "suspicions" if we got a little more info from the CCAA.
I just don't see how after generation upon generation of ideology that woman hold no value this integration of young girls into society will be a good thing.
They are offering a financial incentive, $150 American which is about a year's wages in western China.
With all due respect 8:19 China's Government is not known, nor has ever been described as "humanitarian". According to Amnesty International China is one of the leading Countries in human rights violations. Anyone see Tank Man? Not exactly rainbows and bunnies.
Very little about America's relations with China is solid. While they have an extraordinary program (had?) we can't forget how it started.
The number of girls who are adopted internationally each year is somewhere around 12,000 - 13,000. The gender imbalance is something like 40 million. Eliminating international adoption of girls would not have any noticable effect on the gender imbalance. I am not worried about that happening. Hang in there everyone.
I keep hearing about domestic adoption in China, how does this work? Are they allowed to have one child and still adopt? Can they afford to adopt? And still you have the issue of sons being preferred. I just can't believe they are running out of baby girls or that the domestic adoption has picked up that much. I would love for someone who has information about the domestic adoption to share it. And one last thought, the 60 minutes story said 12,000 girls had been adopted internationally in 2005 but they are missing millions of girls from the past 20 years. Are these 12,000 girls growing up in an orphanage really going to make a dent in the problem? Maybe they should stop abortion if they want more girls.
Anon 10:19 here in response to 10:49...
I was actually being a little sarcastic. That's why I had "humanitarian" in quotes.
I really do believe though that there are people within the CCAA and the orphanages that truly do not have an agenda and want what's best for the children.
But don't worry, I don't have any gross disillusions about the Chinese government as a whole.
Honestly? My thought the current issues have to do with "saving face". The media's attention has been focused on them for quite a while now and the image presented has been less than grand. I don't think it has anything to do with domestic adoption or a change attitude about females or concern about its orphans, this has to do with image, nothing more.
oops, that was supposed to say in response to 10:29 not 49
Does anyone know if it's possible to ask the CCAA to chose a waiting child (rather than choosing a child off an agency's list) for you if you're already LID in the NSN program? If so, how do you go about that?
I know none of us are happy with how the NSN adoption timeframe has slowed to an almost standstill. I am very, very happy to see the emphasis of CCAA on domestic adoptions (which although it is not what I want - I do think is best for the child) and on promoting SN adoptions. I also support CCAA's efforts to move the majority of children into foster homes (where the foster parents have gone through training). I've seen the impact on my first daughter's orphanage where almost all of the NSN children are now in foster care. They had tried foster care before with poor success (no training for the foster parents - children not cared for) but it seems to be working this time around. I know of several agencies and non-profit organizations like LWB and Half the Sky that are helping CCAA in their efforts to promote foster care and to create pre-schools and other programs to help the children that have been abandoned integrate better into society and have a chance for some education. Is it ideal? Absolutely not. Is it better than it was? Absolutely. The one child policy is not at the draconian levels that it was at in the 80's. It is now a one boy 2 child policy and for parents that are both only children I believe they are allowed 2 children of either sex. The changes are happening slowly (too slow for many of us) but there are changes. It will be very interesting to see how China changes as the first generation of 1-child children reach their mid 20's and beyond.
"Is it possible that they realize this, and are preparing to raise more abandoned girls in orphanages, so that they will be available to marry in the future?"
That's exactly what I believe is beginning to happen! C'mon, the government is paying couples to have girls now! It was on 60 minutes. So the "shortage" of healthy infants in the orphanages is definately a result of trying to keep the healthy girls in the country in order to increase the female population! There really isn't a "shortage" of infants in orphanages...there's a shortage that will go towards IA.
10:39 - I had the same question. I don't like the idea of choosing my child. My dossier is logged in and it has been reviewed (August LID) but since I'm going to have to re-do all my paperwork anyhow, I'd be happy to add certain SN and let CCAA choose for me. Can you do that - especially if your paperwork has been reviewed already?
Regarding domestic adoption in China, - my understanding from some recent info is that the cost to adopt a child domestically is $780. No idea what percentage of the population can afford this. That's considerably less than the $3,000 that accredited orphanages receive for an international adoption. Domestic adoption must be on the rise though because some orphanages do have more and more empty cots - some volunteers report this, as well as guides. Those particular orphanages are most likely not accredited for IA, which is what sometimes skews the statistics that we are hearing. That's all I know at present about domestica adoption in China.
Hi,
I am from Belgium and here we get zero information on referrals. My husband and I are LID end of August.
At some point they will have to start doing more than a couple of days, no? If not, what with people who have an LID in february 2006, how long will they have to wait for referrals?? Why can't the CCAA tell us what is going on!
11:04, we have a 2/06/06 LID and I have the same question (as we all do): WHEN WILL WE GET OUR REFERRAL? Looks as if the wait could extend to 18 months or more. It's heartbreaking, but I keep telling myself that this is a short wait compared to a lifetime with our child.
Is anyone concerned about the instituion of quotas or a change (back) in policy to only allow infertile, childless couples to adopt NSN children? I wonder if this is something that may be reinstituted in the future if things continue to slow down.
I have to disagree with what anonymous 10:34 wrote:
"Eliminating international adoption of girls would not have any noticable effect on the gender imbalance." While the numbers might not add up to a big difference, the perception/psychological impact is still huge. China needs girls, meanwhile China is sending away its girls. If you were a young man in China might you not revolt against that system? It seems to me that political decisions are never about hard facts & realities but about perceptions. I agree with others who are very worried about what will happen to all the girls who are still being abandoned but aren't being adopted....because I think that is precisely what is going to happen.
I think after all the dissapointments in longer wait times, rumors, etc it is causing all of us to be alarmed. I don't think we have to worry about IA stopping otherwise CCAA would be informing us don't you think? Why would they keep accepting dossiers if they felt the numbers were out of our control. I still think once they get through Jun referrals things will speed up somewhat again and they will do a little catch up. We all know Sep is a small month so who knows, they may send out 2 mos of referrals once they get to Sept/Oct referrals.
We are DTC in late March for our second adoption from China. We waited only six months for our first referral, so anticipation of 18-24 months for a second wait is just impossible. In fact, we "saw the writing on the wall" just before submitting our dossier and had a lengthy discussion about going to Vietnam instead. We adore our agency and the China Coordinator and thus, in the end decided to stick with China--anticipating a 10-12 month wait. In just the past month, rumors of 18-24 month waits have emerged. Anyone else considering a switch to another country? Quite honestly, we talked about it last night. It breaks my heart...for us and for our older daughter. We don't know right now, what we will do.
Let's not put the cart before the horse. There is no reason to believe they are going to go back to the "childless couples" thing.
And, honestly, if they haven't put a quota in place yet then I have to wonder if they will do it again. Things are much worse than they were last time, and we are a year past the point where a quota should have been put in place.
I, too, feel that the future of the NSN program does not look good. But I felt that way long before the news media started talking about it. I think it will be drastically scaled back (less applications due to the wait), but I don't think the CCAA is going to stop it in the near future.
As I've said before, last time the slow down wasn't as scary. Three weeks of DTC's in a month instead of a month in a month. Or, a month of DTC's but they'd take five or six weeks to do it. They never slowed down to the extent they have now.
Last time the reason was too many dossiers. This time the reason seems to be a refusal to send paperwork for as many babies as was being sent in the past.
11:43 - we cannot change countries because we went with a China-only agency. Now I am wondering if that wasn't a huge mistake.
11:41 - You're applying western thought to a Communist run country and agency. There doesn't necessarily have to be logic associated with a directive given by the Chinese Government. The CCAA may very well not know what the final outcome of these changes are to be.
What did everyone talk about when the wait was short?
11:49 - LMAO. I love it. Thanks for the laugh ;)
Ironically, we chose Russia first, then decided to change since China was so much easier. Our agency just posted that Russia is making things easier. You don't even have to have your I71-H with your dossier. You only submit that after your first trip. So, my options are slim as well. China, Ukraine, and Russia. And the Ukraine isn't even accepting new dossiers at this point. Anyone else think of changing?
11:49 - I wouldn't know. I've never done this during a short wait. But, with a 6 month wait you'd have just enough time to fix the nursery and baby proof the house, and prepare your pets for the new baby. Not a lot of time to talk.
Nothing important or new to say, just wanted to express some frustration at this whole process. After years of infertilty, miscarriages and the death of my newborn daughter, I'm tired of waiting!! Why is it so hard to have a child? Infertility and evasive tests are a slap in the face, but in my opinion so is CCAA!! Seems like they don't care about what it's doing to us, not to mention the fact that each day of not receiving referrals is another day that are daughters are in the orphanages. Honestly, if I would have known we'd be looking at a 18-mth wait, I'd go somewhere else. Hell, I'll buy a plane ticket and volunteer my time at CCAA just to get them caught up! I'm sure all of us would. Anyhoo, thanks for letting me vent :)
The one factor that we have not discussed that plays into the wait equation is the number of children that are registed each month with CCAA for international adoption. Does anyone know how many are registed each month? Has this number gone down? Is there more demand for children than registered children?
It's funny but I've been seeing special needs referrals for children that were NSN during my first adoption. Examples: ptosis (droopy eyelid - friend's NSN daughter has that), hernia and birthmark (my daughter). It's gotten me thinking - are a lot of previously NSN children being routed to the SN queue?
I find it odd that the agency's met on Thursday and a letter went out with regard to this meeting so quickly.
I don't think the government is going to keep the girls & raise them in SWI's. The girls are abandoned & therefore have no family ties & family ties in China are crucial. With no family ties they are deemed "unmarryable" by almost all families.
I really think they're trying to extend the wait to 12 months b/c of the huge influx of dossiers they got when the wait was 5-6 months...it was the shortest program & they were open when others were closing their doors.
I totally hear you 11:58.
It is sooo hard to wait for our first child. We too went through infertility treatments without success. I also was soo excitied going into this thinking the wait was 6-9 mos. NOw 18 plus, this is crazy. Our lid is in March!!! So who knows how long we will have to wait. UGH!! I sometimes wonder if I will ever be a mother?? While everyone else around us is getting pregnant, etc. It is hard to stomach. I sometimes wonder if someone up there really wants to torture me and make me suffer. Everyday I have to stare at the room that is all painted and ready for our little one. I just want to be a mother more than anything!!!!
Like inferlitily treatments I wonder if this will ever work and if I will ever be a mother?
12:12 PM here again.
Also, if your LID longer than 4 months it's harder to switch to SN's. In some cases, you have to redo your entire dossier. It would be much easier for those newly DTC/LID to switch than those of us that have already been waiting longer than 6 months.
12:16 can you elaborate on why/how you think it's harder to switch to SN after you've been LID for 4 months? I wouldn't think there would be a difference unless it's whether or not your dossier has already been reviewed. And we all know that doesn't magically happen at the 4 month mark so I'm just curious for more information.
It wasn't that long ago that CCAA only allowed parents without other children at home to adopt NSN. I Looked into China Adoption a few years ago and at the time we were too young and had children at home so we didn't qualify for NSN adoption. It wouldn't suprise me if CCAA brought those rules back into play again to slow down the amount of girls now leaving China. There is so much hype on the boy/girl ratio in the media now, they have to be sitting up and taking notice?
My hope is it doesn't affect the families who are already logged in. We have been logged in six months and I don't want to have to pull out because of any new rules CCAA impliment.
Because I know someone that it happened to & they had to completely redo their entire dossier.
If you want to switch, you should talk to your agency about the details.
The other issue is that the SN's lists for each agency aren't very big so lots of couples are trying for each child which is hard as well.
As hard as it is to think about referrals only going to June 6th, it represents 50% of what remains for May and June (per the Rumor Queen's poll).
This actually brings my hopes up quite a bit as even though its not a half of a month in days, its half a month in volume!
And given this huge volume in this referral batch (if it goes through the 6th), it gives me hopes to returning to a "normal" cycle soon.
Just curious. If one of the adoptive parents is Asian, it is true that their file will be expidited and they will get a referral sooner than the rest of us?
I am concerned about the "I want it, and I want it now" sentiments that I am reading.
I hope we are doing this because of the children and what they need, rather than what we want and feel we are entitled to.
I too am frustrated with not knowing when/where/how/why the wait is lengthening. If I knew some of those answers, it would make the wait easier.
I try on a daily basis to keep a positive attitude. It's too easy to let the frustrations and “what ifs” take over everything else in my life. I am ready to start a letter writing campaign to my congress people about extending the expiration dates on the I171H and the fingerprints.
Rumor Queen, you rock! You have done a great job at bringing all this information together and presenting it to a starving audience.
12:48 -- Yes, it happened to friends of ours. They returned home in February, and their travel group just received their referrals the Friday before last. They got to go several months before their travel group because the mother is Chinese.
12:41 - exactly.
12:48 - no. If one parent is of Chinese ancestry (there are stipulations) then they can be expedited. But just being Asian won't do it.
My agency does not work with SN (waiting) children from China. The agency only deals with NSN adoptions from China. If the adoption program in China changes focus to mainly SN, I wonder how this will affect me and their other clients?
Ok, I take a little issue with the comment "I hope we are doing this because of the children and what they need, rather than what we want and feel we are entitled to."
Make absolutely no mistake about it, I am not doing this to save a child. Here, I'll repeat that for you I AM NOT ADOPTING TO SAVE A CHILD. It has to do with my husband and I wanting a family.
If you're in it to save a poor child from a third world country - goody for you, but don't you dare judge those of us who have been to hell and back to get to our babies. My feelings and my husbands feeling are valid and the insinuation that if we're not doing it "for the children" we're somehow selfish, is a wee bit insulting.
And where in this stream did someone write the word "entitled?" I'm not seeing it, please direct me to it if in fact I'm incorrect.
Sorry RQ.
And after 10 months, "I want it and I want it now" doesn't exactly fit does it?
Oh, and by the way I don't think Veruca Salt is participating on this blog.
We are all in this for different reasons. Since we are all anon we'll never even know the true ones, or even identities of each other. I don't think 12:54 was trying to judge. But, truthfully, there is nothing we can do, except wait, and hope. Go through the motions of contacting congress, etc. All this for the last couple of days is TOTAL RUMOR!! My agency is insisting that there is no 18 month wait coming. Understandably, emotions are high, but we are all in this together, regardless of our motives.
1:07 is me.
1:03 PM
I have to agree with you. I am not doing this to "save a child from the third world". If I was on that road I would handle things diffrently. Me, I just want a family and do not see that as a selfish act as many of the people "saving" children already have bio kids of their own. This long wait would be OK IF we only knew for sure it was this long..or short.. or that is my feeling
I posted this in another part of this blogpage and wanted to share it with all the anonymouses...
in referrence to Anon 12:54 and Anon 1:03
(edited)
me and my wife, we felt drawn to adopt from China (this will be our first child). We had many reasons really. I'm sure lots of people have their own reasons. My point is, yes this is tough to wait through, yes we're unsure what's going to happen, yes we're probably going to have to re-do some stuff (personally i'm definitely hoping to avoid the I-171H re-do but if so I'll deal with it) but we're all on this journey and shouldn't question whether we did the right thing or anything at all. There are children at the end of our red threads that are waiting for us and no matter what the hardship these children will make all of this seem so trivial and our lives so much better.
RE: I want it and I want it now--
Welllll, I've been waiting for FIVE YEARS to have a family. FIVE YEARS of heartbreak, failed IVF with no explanation after failed IVF, tests, surgeries, and countless friends getting pregnant and having kid after kid, and five years later I'm still far away from having my family. If I knew the date I was working towards, then things might be different emotionally for me right now. But I'm basically flailing about in limbo with a blindfold hoping to grab onto something I've only been told exists, but don't believe it yet.
Yes, I want my family, and yes, I want my family now. And I've got five full years of wanting a family behind me. Is that good enough? Do I get to be upset now?
I'm guessing most of us are in a similar situation. It's not like I started the adoption process twenty minutes ago.
what happened to 'be nice'?
It seems it always comes to this . . .
Can I post my theory? I've had this theory pretty much since last fall, and so far, everything seems to be following it.
Late last summer, just as I was getting my I-171H together, I heard someplace (probably APC) that CCAA had a new director. At the time, I thought "uh-oh", because in government bureaucracies, new directors usually mean new directions.
Well, the slowdown began the very next month.
By November, my agency had told us to expect 10 to 12 months. I pretty much took that to mean 12 in my case. The fact that agencies already knew in the fall tells me that this slowdown was (and is) INTENTIONAL.
Now why? Why would there be such a sudden turnabout?
Well, I think that the CCAA had probably been a bit of a backwater in the Chinese government for a long time, running things as they wished. And sometime last year, higher ups in the government suddenly noticed what was going on, and that China was now the world leader for international adoptions. No country wants to be the world leader in international adoptions. It is really embarrassing, especially for a country like China which is clearly trying to show itself as the leader of the region.
I think the Chinese government installed a new director with a mandate to turn things around, as quietly as possible (because you don't want to just halt adoptions like Russia - that puts your country even more in the news). Slowing down referrals is the best way to accomplish that. You don't have to make any public announcements, and the slowdown just creeps up on everyone. Eventually, all those families seeking to adopt will start melting away as they choose other countries. It is very similar to the way that many state governments in the U.S. pare down their food stamp rolls - by slowing down the process so much that people just quit trying.
This is my theory, and it has been my theory since last fall. It is based on nothing except a lifetime of being interested in politics, history, and government, and noticing the way things often get done in governments.
yikes!
Come on people - breathe. We're in this together. Everyone has their own story about what led them to adoption & to the China program. It doesn't do any good to invalidate each other, or put one family's need above another. If they're going to institute restrictions for people with kids at home - it's out of our control, just like everything else about this process. It doesn't help to attack each other along the way. That's what APC is for.
Comes to what--people disagreeing? I think that's okay!
Hey, we're all adults here. We can disagree! I don't see anyone getting mean or calling anyone names or anything. We are allowed to disagree with one another. In fact, a little healthy disagreement makes me think.
I've seen some pretty heated arguments and discussions happen over at my blog, and I always think those are the most interesting and the ones I learn the most from. I don't think disagreeing with someone is automatically not playing nice.
We are all in this together, but it doesn't mean that we aren't going to have different views or ways of looking at things. :)
I'm adopting a baby girl from China because I want the mother/daughter bond I had with my mother. I lost my mother when I was 29 to cancer. She was my best friend and I can't think of going thru life without that kind of bond again. She died when my 1st son was 6 months old. My second child almost died at birth. He is my miracle baby and they are both the light of my life. But sadly already attached to dad. They want to be with him 95 percent of the time. (What boy whats to go shopping with his mom) It breaks my heart that there are couples who can't have children waiting for China. Please lets respect one another and not judge.
I am another one who just wants a child! It's been over 10 years for us. I've lost many pregnancies, and with this wait getting longer, it feels like another loss. If trying to have a biological baby didn't work, why should this?
I am not trying to save a child...I just want a sweet baby to call my own.
i think anon 1:46 makes a very good (and very sobering) point.
In response to the anonymous post at 12:10 p.m.:
"I find it odd that the agency's met on Thursday and a letter went out with regard to this meeting so quickly."
There was no letter send out. The agency posted those comments on a website intended for clients of AAI ONLY. The comments were copied and forwarded without the agency's consent.
we have been LID since 10/05 for NSN. we are just switching now for SN with no problem---the 4 month thing was true when referral were 6 months (you were in the matching room at 4 months) since we are at least 10 months from the matching room, switching is no problem
I use to be one that would judge others for being impatient and would usually anger others. I have changed so much. As the wait draws out I am really feeling for the people who are starting out and have no children. I am not stating this to start a debate as I am tired of all debates. I just want to state how much I have changed. I have a little one to hold and that keeps me going until the referral arrives.
This wait has become crazy because there is no true rhyme or reason to any of it The one's that are waiting with empty arms must really ache.
Everyone has different reasons for adopting and that is fine. For some the need is for people wanting to be parents and for some it is giving a home to a child. The personal reasons are that: personal. We are adopting another to give a 4 year old adopted from China a little sister. Some would be angry that we are given the chance to adopt again as this will be child #6 in our family. I do not care as my little one wants a sister that is chinese like her.
I say be frustrated. I know I am. I am LID June 9 and believe I will be cut off this month.
Let us quit debating and be tolerent and know that our reasons are different and if someone wants a baby now let them. Nobody lectures an 8 month pregnant women when she complains that she wants to deliever and hold her baby. We all want our babies or we would not be doing this. If you are doing this to "save a baby" great for you and blessings. I am doing this because I want a baby.
I want to apologize to all the people I told to stop whining. I was sitting on my pedastal and found out it is lonley up there.
I go under anonymous because I do not blog, but I will introduce myself. My name is Kate and we are waiting for Clementine Isabella. I have 4 bio children ages 15-19 and a child adopted from China Feb 2003. When the wait was 13 months, but we knew it would be that long.
Hang in there everyone. Maybe this next batch will give us some answers, but I doubt it. I really feel for the people as the wait becomes longer.
I will confess to writing anon 12:54.
It seems it is very easy to misinterpret what is being said here. I am going to explain what I am experiencing in this wait. Please do not assume that I am applying it to your unique situation.
In terms of "I hope we are doing this because of the children and what they need"... No where did I say anything about saving third world children. I would not adopt if that were my motivation.
I am adopting because I want to bring a child into my life so we will be a family. My focus is on the welfare of my future child, not my wants and needs around parenthood.
In terms of the "I want it now" statement, I apologize if I offended you. No offense was meant.
Believe me, I want to bring my daughter home sooner than later. Wanting it to happen right now will not make it happen any sooner for me. I have no control over what the CCAA does. I only have control my feelings and attitudes.
Like everyone else, I bring different losses and reasons for adopting to the table. I am trying to focus forward, rather than back. I hope I am able to bring a positive attitude and joy to the table when I meet my daughter, and not have the frustrations of the wait and past losses impact our future together.
I am with you there 1:32
I too feel like you. I am very sorry if anyone gets offended. But what about the childless parents? We are all in this together but it is extra hard on us as we have a void in our lives and no other children to help us pass the time. I feel very angry and bitter alot of the time. I HUNGER to be a parent period. NOt a parent to my 2nd, 3rd, 5th, etc. I know anyone in this boat knows what i am talking about.:( I also have stuggled with infertility for a few years and had to deal with not being able to have any bio children. NOw it is even hard to get a child by IA. It seems like I am in a neverending battle.
I know this is really selfish of me, and I hesitate to even put it in writing. I am one of those childless infertiles, and I wish that childless infertiles like me could be expedited. I know I know, I understand why those with children would think this is crazy, but you have someone to kiss good night and snuggle with and I don't....
Sorry for being selfish, I would never admit this except it's anon...
Well since we're wishing, not only do I wish I could be expedited but I'd like to be in this next batch. And, I'd like to be 30 pounds thinner so I don't look like a beached whale in my Gotcha pictures.
2:14
I as soo with you there!!:)
Hang in there we WILL be mothers come hell or high water!!
I'm with you on the 30lbs. And then I'd wish for the $ to stay home, but yet live the high life, and then I think I'd wish I could have kids of my own. But alas, I am mature, and not prone to wishing what is not true, or throwing a tantrum about what can not be changed, or letting my feelings run my life. :)
2:20--Kids of your own? What do you mean? Aren't adopted kids also your own kids?
Anon, adopting her own kid and proud of it! (And with a special pet peeve for the old "kids of my own" thing)
I so let my feelings run my life. Generally I prefer not to be a robot, but a woman.
i agree with you 2:14. but how about a plain old quota? why are they allowing this huge influx of dossiers if they are just going to make us wait and suffer. here they are with, like almost zero paper-ready babies, no indication that there are more coming, and they are still accepting dossiers from any and everyone...
I also get frustrated sometimes about the wait, but I try to remember something a friend told me a while back. She waited 15 months for her first daughter, and said that when she was tempted to let her emotions get the best of her, she reminded herself that she wanted to look back at this time of "expecting" with excitement and dignity, not anger and bitterness. That was pretty sobering for me - I don't want to be remembered as the "complaining expectant mother" who made everyone around her miserable.
I have not waited 15 months for my first daughter. 15 months would be awesome! I have waited over five years. Five years just plain stinks. There's nothing good about five years!
So yeah, I'm gonna be a complaining, hag-like expectant mom to be who lets my feelings run all over the durn place!
Thanks for your post 1:46 pm. I did not know this and I do believe that you are right. Also, I think it may be a good thing to remember that many countries with bureaucratic adoption laws often try to sneak the kids out through SN programs, and this is clearly what I have seen in some cases from China.
I am desperately waiting for my child but I also really hope that China will come to terms with its issues, maybe through domestic adoption. And honestly, I would feel so much better adopting my child if I knew that he or she would have had a real chance of having been adopted domestically. So at this point I actually do not mind the wait that much, if the ethics of Chinese adoptions are improving.
Chalk me up to angry and bitter. Too late for bumble bees and dew drops.
But I promise I'll be really, really happy once my daughter is in my arms AND I'll be able to tell her one day how much I longed for her when I wasn't with her. How my arms ached to hold her and how sometimes her Mommy thought she would go crazy waiting for her.
To those who are waiting to be parents for the first time, my heart truly, truly goes out to you. We experienced a miscarraige and a tubal pregnancy in which I almost bled to death, as well as infertility before we had our two biological children. We were advised not to try and get pregnant again but really wanted another child. We thought China was the perfect solution. We could be parents again and we could give a child parents who otherwise would not have them. Now, that doesn't seem to be the case. It really bothers me to think we would get a baby before others who have no children. We are really thinking of dropping out. I know someone will say "if our hearts are REALLY with China" we wouldn't consider not going the distance, but the facts seem to be playing out that we would be taking a baby that actually has a line of childless parents who would love to have her. The SN children with our agency have 4-10 people petitioning for each one.
Dazed and confused...
I actually haven't been complaining to anyone else except others who are going through the same thing. And I am in my 5th year of waiting.
I know all about how the wait won't seem so bad when we have our child. Well, that sounds great, and maybe I'll feel that way THEN, but I don't now, and if I couldn't vent to others in the same boat I'd go crazy.
On the outside, I'm shopping, happy, talking about my daughter like she's waiting at Grandma's. I think about the fact that there will only be one more Christmas without her (Surely this is the case- I am a 3-27-06 LID). But it still doesn't make me feel better. I think, if I had a date, like it will be 14 months, but you will 100% get that referral in 14 months then I would be better. At least then I would know. Uncertainty is the hardest. After 5 years of infertility, I've had all the uncertainty I can take. What I need is something I can count on, and timing is important. I'm not getting any younger!
Yeah, herehere, salute! to anon 1:03 AND 1:07
I ditto your sentiments and was also insulted reading that thread...
Ladies and Gentlemen:
I have no choice but to wait as long as it takes because my daughter is in China. I will not give up and I will not become frustrated. I will wait. I may not like it but I will wait as long as it takes. It will be worth it. I will wait. My daughter is in China.
I will redo paperwork if I have to, I will wait as long as it takes.
I have four biological children born in the states and this has been much more stressful than any of my pregnancies. HOWEVER,
I will wait, my daughter is in China, she needs me and we need her.
anon 2:48, that is incredibly kind of you to even consider putting others' needs ahead of yours. as i am childless, that really touches me. i wish you the best on whatever you decide...
I am sooooo with you 2:11& 2:14. We are childless and my heart is broken when I see parents with their children adopted or not. I know the wait is hard on EVERYONE but those of us who are childless suffer a little bit more. I'm sorry but it's true. Often I think that the wait wouldn't be so bad if I had the pitter patter of little feet in the house! I am soooo ready to be a mom and I feel cheated by this wait. I read somwhere that someone described it as running a marathon and somebody keeps moving the finish line. Thanks for letting e vent guys.
2:48 - you stop that thinking right now! Look, as a childless woman I do sometimes wish my referral could be expedited because I'm super greedy like that. But the cold hard truth of the matter is, waiting is waiting and it sucks. We're weathering the perfect storm, it's going to be hard and there's going to emotions flying all over the place. If you're drawn to China, chances are you daughter's in China my friend. Listen to your instincts.
It may sound bad but it makes me feel better to know that other people feel the same way I do. My husband and I have suffered through three years of infertility. We picked China, among other reasons because of the "stability" of the progrem which of course as soon as I head down the road turns into chaos. I feel like I will never be a mother and at times with everbody I know getting pregnant it feels like I am the only person in this situation. Thank you for all of your comments. You let me know I am not alone on this road.
Wow, we practically went from an e-knife fight to a e-group hug.
We're so cool
As a mother of two adopted daughters, one from China, I do agree that childless couples maybe should be expedited. I also feel that those with another daughter from China already should not be turned away, the bond between the two adopted from the same country may be invaluable to both for the rest of their lives. Of course with those rules, we would qualify to adopt!
Seriously, other than that if there were quotas for those who have multiple children or even those with two from China already, I could accept that. Other countries have all sorts of rules that exclude families of all sorts of configurations, be is length of time married to weight issues. It is that country's perogitive to choose where their children go.
I would rather have a choice to wait two years than be excluded for sure. But I would understand if a quota was put in place.
And to anon 909am, we did adopt a NSN child who turns out to have special needs. Please have in mind that any child could turn out to have undiagnosed needs that may turn up later. There was no way we could have known and no way we would change a thing now. I suppose it is a case of you are only given what you can handle. Even if you don't plan to have a SN child and don't want that challenge in life, I am sure that you would adapt once your child is home. You love her and will do anything for her, that is what parenting is.That is what happened to us and I am sure we are not the only ones who got SN by surprise.
The Chinese have an incredible sense of honor, and they have demostrated this in the past. Dossiers logged under one set of rules are not "converted". Those rules still apply to those applicants, with new rules generally announced well in advance and only applicable to new files.
I DON'T have any concern about us not receiving a referral eventually, even if it is long time from now, you WILL get your referral - don't have a bad day because of these rumors. Enjoy this day!
I struggled with infertility for 3.5 LONG years, many miscarriages, IVF, Clomid, FET. You name it, I've done it. Now I have daughter #1 from China and am waiting on #2 (little sister for #1).
I just want to express how bad I feel for those of you waiting for #1. I have no right to complain about the wait, since I have #1 (although I am guilty of the occasional whining).
In my opion, the infertile couples with no children should be put first without a doubt. I just feel so bad for those people, as I was one myself. (((Hugs)))
We are a couple who have been LID for 3 month now and I'm now begining to worry if CCAA is going to reject us as we have a mixed race marriage of (african-european couple). Does anyone know or have heard anything on this?
Thanks.
I needed that last post anon 3:19. I have been reading these posts all day and have worked myself into a messy ball of teary nerves. An hour ago, my agency called to tell us we are DTC. Unfortunatly, I allowed the 24 mo wait and SN rumors to get the best of me and I didn't even get excited when I got the DTC call. Shame on me. I am taking a deep breathe and allowing myself to rejoice in this not-so-small milestone. I know our daughter Amelie, our first child we have been waiting on for so long now, is waiting for us in China. It's just a matter of time : )
anon 3:26, i am no huge fan of the ccaa but i do not believe for an instant that they would discriminate based on mixed-race. they would never get away with it. i dont know where this rumor came from. and wasn't it discounted already?
it may have been that a couple was booted in review for having some health issue and they happened to be mixed race as well so the rumor started. i just dont believe it. and i dont think china, who wants to be seen as a global player, would do such a thing
Yes, in the past the CCAA has instituted changes on new dossiers, not on paperwork already logged in.
---------------
The mixed race thing came from the State Department, where some agencies reported it to them. Other agencies have said they've had no problems, so who knows the truth of it. I've reported on it in the past week or two.
--------------
Remember my "Don't Panic" post - we are still in the rumor stage. If it gets to be too much for you then go outside and walk around and soak in some sunshine.
2:48, I'm with you. It seems like all this has just come across in the last week. My agency keeps telling me it's just rumors, so I'm not dropping yet. For months, I have been SO excited, and it all seems to be crahing and burning!!!
I don't usually post on this board but as a mother this is very frusterating to see people who think they deserve their daughter before I do because I have 5 other children. My husband put it best when he read this blog for the first time saying how crazy people sound thinking the deserve a referral before someone else because they do not have any children or because they went throught infertility. Well his response to that was "well those with kids should get referrals first because they know what they are missing" Obviously he was being sarcastic but do those of you thinking that understand now how it feels to those of us that have bio or adoptive kids when you claim you should be anything but equal to us??? BTW I have 4 bio children and only a 10% success rate at pregnancy, do the math we have been through our share of heart ache as well. However I don't think I should be anywhere but where I am in line LID 12/22/05.
We will all get our daughters in the order of our LID just as we should, Fair is fair...
Anon 4:03 - I don't have kids, waiting for my first, 6 1/2 years of infertility/miscarriages - and I could not agree with you more. You said it very well.
Actually, I am the adoptive mom of one son, and I also think childless families should get priority. I remember the pain of being childless and even if it meant only having one child, my son, I would support giving these families priority. Everyone should have the opportunity to be a parent, its the greatest joy in the world.
My peeve however is a trend I am seeing with WC programs. Apparently a family can accept a referral for one of these children without even being DTC yet. Or even having started the paperword chase. It may be another 6 months before the family is DTC if they are just starting out, and another 4 months until they travel, meaning that child waits 10 months after referral. This wouldnt be a problem except other families already LID are also interested in the child. Also the child is denied medical care they could receive if they were adopted earlier. This is happening at my agency and it is wrong. I think you shoudl get priority if you are ready to travel with your ducks in a row so the child doesnt have to wait. Just my two cents.
For all those "head of the line" folks, where does the line start?
"well those with kids should get referrals first because they know what they are missing"
wow, 4:03, did your husband really say that? What a nasty thing to say. if my husband said something like that i'd be too embarassed to quote him!
I’m sorry guys, but I’m going to ruin the group hug for a moment. I take issue with the following statements…
Anon 2:11 “But what about the childless parents? We are all in this together but it is extra hard on us as”
and
Anon 2:54 “those of us who are childless suffer a little bit more. I'm sorry but it's true.”
I just want to say, how dare you.
When I was trying to get pregnant years ago, my best friend and I were going to the same infertility doctor. She had a domestically adopted son at the time. We supported each other through failed treatment after failed treatment and loss after loss. NOT ONCE did I ever consider that I was suffering more because she already had a child at home. It was a nightmare for both of us.
Now, 10 years later, she and her DH are the proud parents of 2 domestically adopted, and 3 internationally adopted children and we are the eternally grateful and lucky parents to a 7 year old biological son.
None of that changes the heartache and despair that we have so far endured during our journey to his sister.
I’m not suggesting that your feelings are invalid or that you are not “suffering” more than me. Perhaps you are. I am just saying you have some nerve to suggest that it is a FACT that childless couples suffer more.
He was being absurd to illustrate how absurd it is to say anyone should be given any preference -
Hey ANON 4:03 PM
You're not going to get any sympathy with the statement "10% success rate" for pregnancy when you have 4 bio. kids! I can't even believe that you offered that information here. I don't want to hear about your 5 kids lady and could give a crap what your husband has to say about who is more deserving. This sux for all of us, but with 5 kids..why even bother commenting. Shit.
Wait - ya'll are trying to have a contest of who is hurting more?
And we were doing so good.
anon posting seems to not be a good idea.
No it's not a contest rumorqueen we are simply expressing how we REALLY feel and yes we are HURTING.
It's good to have each other so we don't feel so isolated and alone.
MEOW!!!!
Childless couples absolutely should get priortiy in my opinion.
Yes those of us that have no children DO suffer OUR OWN agony. We are in this together. But to those of you that have other children you are so lucky to have a beautiful distraction during this agonizing wait. Well, I have my pets, but it's just not the same.:(
Sorry, but I agree that someone with 4 kids isnt getting my sympathy. Its great you want to adopt, but in many countries you wouldnt even be eligible due to your family size. If there is a shortage of kids, smaller or childless familes should take priority.
How about chubby childless couples? Can I go first since I've gained the most weight during the wait? Who's gonna call the CCAA?
I also agree childless couples should get priority. Others that already have children may not agree. But it is only fair don't you think? I find it very hard and agrivating to read someone with 2 or more kids complaining about how long the wait is to their daughter and how they cannot bear the pain. Oh please!! It gets me sooo ANGRY!! Life is not fair..!!
Yes that goes for childess chubby couples too. I think any childless couples should be expidited.:)
What's great about adopting from China is that if we meet the criteria for adoption, we will eventually adopt a child.
I am willing... whether I have children or not, whether I am hurting or not, whether I have infertility problems or not, whether I want to wait or not... to do what it takes.
Again, I'm still trying to figure out where the head of the line is? Does each new LID childless couple, get a BUMP date - a new date ahead of the most current LID of a non childless couple? Or is it by month? Before we call the CCAA, should we figure out where the head of hte line would be? And what about people with only one child from China. I think that a sibling for that first child, might actually be MORE important than a first child for a childless couple - so how will we fit them into our equation? Signed, not this good at math
Wow. I have 2 children already, but I still love and want my child waiting in China. I am so sorry for those of you who are hurting and longing for your first child, but I love and hurt for my daughter just as much as anyone. You CANNOT convince me otherwise.
And no, I don't think childless couples should get priority at this point. Now, if that was the case and had been known upfront, I could deal with it. But that would be wrong for those who are already logged in. Fortunately, I have seen nothing but people venting about it so I am not worried about it actually become policy.
I know many of you are seriously frustrated, scared, and very angry! But please don't tell those of us who are parents that we aren't suffering too.
Hey, sometimes 5 children just isn't enough! And when you want a 6th, you just gotta have her, and not only do you gotta have her, but she's gotta be from the one country that's RUNNING OUT OF BABIES!
This is the kind of thing i'll never understand...
You know, while there was a lot of pissy messages posted this morning, did you also see that on several occasions we banned together in support? In thought? Some of us, me included, are wearing our emotions on our sleeves, our nerves are naked wires and while some are ok with the delays, others, like me, are having difficulty at having our dreams crushed month after month. Sure we all knew the timeline was a crap shoot, but honestly I think if you read a little closer you'll see it has nothing to do with waiting times, it has to do with fear. Fear of not having any control of the most important decision you've ever made, fear that things are out of control and absolutely the worst of all, fear that there's something 'wrong'.
Please read in between the lines and I think you'll see a group of woman who truly do respect one another. Speaking an opinion is not disappointing, it merely shows we're human and vulnerable.
And I think maybe you're taking a lot of our joking around as serious. This spoken from the chubby childless woman.
I agree Stephanie - I enjoy these "anon posting" days as much for the chitchat as I do the rumors we get.
I love the sense of community we have, and I hope to eventually be able to move us somewhere with an actual forum.
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